Pre Planning - My Possible Reaper Motivations

[King Feraligatr]

To avoid a ME3 and starbrat, I wanted to start early on possible Reaper motivations. While the Reapers are not present physically in the Rewrite plot until the endgame; their actions, technology, cycle, and more define lots in Mass Effect history and happenings. Also, as the current (and is almost likely to always be for the final thing) primary antagonist is Saren and Sovereign's Geth faction - the Mainliners (or orthodox Geth, mainline Geth, etc. They're the primary Geth faction in the Rewrite, compromising around up to 90% of all Geth. Mainliners is a term I made up for ease) - worships the Reapers and want to follow in their footsteps, having some Reaper motivations will help. These will likely never be mentioned in the story proper, they're just there for me, the main organizer and leader of this project, to have a working point when dealing with the Reapers. Bioware fucked up big time for not having a clue for why the Reapers do what they do, and it's up to me to fix that mistake, preferably early on. Well, here's the ideas:

• No whitewashing of the Reapers (in ME3, the writers would have you believe they're the heroes). What they do is beyond monstrous and should not be not be excused. They commit genocide about 50,000 Earth years, killing billions if not trillions every cylce. And they've been doing this for millions upon millions of years based on a quote by Sovereign ("Millions of years after you have been eradicated and forgotten, we will endure" or something similar to that effect). It's not a stretch to say they've killed in the low quadrillions at least.
• Because of this, I figure the Reapers are no doubt malevolent beyond belief and have no real higher purpose. They must like killing, cruelty, are high on god complex, and/or etc.
• One reason I figure the Reapers do this cycle is because they liking killing things that are not Reapers, period and it's a game to them. They enjoy murdering all sufficiently organic life and all synthetic life that opposes them. Based on what Sovereign says, they assume organic life is beyond below them and given their god complex, that's one reason they like killing them. However, they don't consider other synthetic life to be much better. If they don't kill them; they'll torture them, convert them, wreck havoc on them, etc. All in all, the Reapers like killing, consider it a game that they do not want to end, and justify it partly due to god complex. They also like being cruel and sometime toying with their prey. The Reapers are utter monsters with no redeeming traits and are all committed to the the goal of the genocide (I assume if any DID try to resist, they'd be massacred).
• I'm also thinking the Reapers love sowing chaos amongst their prey. It'd be one reason they could attack through the Citadel relay, shut off the relay network (these two are also very strategically sound as well.), and leave behind so many indoctrination devices around. Why not have your target do tons of damage to themselves while you're toying with and murdering them? And why not have willing servants to you even when you're not there?
• Things ME1 suggest that the Reapers aren't so stoic and unknowable as Sovereign says. Sovereign seems quite petty several times over ME1 (the possible hissy fit that he might have made Saren do against Benezia; rerouting himself after talking to Shepard; his gloating when takes over Husk Saren during the final boss battle; and possibly more). This suggests to me that my more petty and mundane motivations for the Reapers above might not be all out of character. While the Reapers are no doubt powerful, intelligent, on a possible tier of existence altogether, usually have infinite patience (usually), etc.; with this possible evidence, who says they can't be just like the people they kill on some levels? Who says those massive starships aren't gamespeople and sadistic? Not to mention arrogant?
• What else to the Reapers get out of the cycle barring sadistic pleasure, game time, and more? Well, it's a time to repair and make new Reapers (no organic goo or something else completely asinine. More like using high quality parts and programming or something). They could also get new technology as well. Sure the Reapers are hyper advanced, but they can't know everything. Why not steal the technology of the races you've murdered and use it yourself? The Reapers no doubt research ways to upgrade themselves at times, but the cycle gives them a possibly easier and not to mention more fun (to them) way of getting new technology. It's also a way to get slaves, spread Reaper indoctrination and husk devices (like Dragon's Teeth), and scout out new races for the next cycle(s). While they do things this cycle, they can prepare for the next one, ensuring they have an idea how to get maximum murder.

[/i] give me feedback on this. Several parts of my ideas here seem self contradictory, not explained enough, off, and/or more. As I said, these things might never be said in story and only used for developmental reasons. Something as important as Reaper motivations must be picked apart and analyzed so it makes sense, is satisfying, fits with previous lore, and we don't end up with a ME2 and 3 Reaper plot.
[/ul]

[Deadspear]

Those are good ideas, but here are just some questions: So non-cannon Legion's geth are the minority in the rewrite? The 10% that don't follow the Reapers?
The way you describe them you make the reapers sound like a bond villan, not the non-feeling Hal-9000 we came to expect. But that leads me to another point. What if, keep with me here, the reapers were just puppets controlled by some twisted race. Something along the lines of non-cannon Overlord DLC, where David was controlling the Geth. David seemed like a scary, sadistic monster, killing and rampaging. In the end David was just a scared brainwashed teenager strapped to a grotesque machine. What if the cannon-originators (dunno if their Leviaths in the rewrite or just some unknown race) tried to control machines like they Cerberus non-canonically tried, and once they did they got drunk with power, and annihilated their competition. It could even be spun that they took control of machines to end a war.

[Parastrat0023]

Reading through what King Feraligatr said, I just realized that the mainline Geth would become a lot less sympathetic antagonists by extension since they're said to worship the Reapers and wish to follow in their footsteps. One of the main issues I had with how ME3 treated the Quarians was how Bioware decided to just flip the tables and make the Quarians seem like an overly paranoid, unsympathetic, I dare say even stupid and antagonistic race who just took it upon themselves to destroy the Geth out of mere suspicion that wasn't even justified. I can see these changes making the quarians seem more sympathetic in contrast, although I would have idealistically preferred a morally gray scenario where both sides had good points despite neither one of them being in the right (for example, the quarians taking pre-emptive action to discontinue the Geth brought about because one quarian actually discovered a small group of Geth planning a violent revolt because of some percentage of the quarian population enjoying sadistic torture and wanton destruction of Geth who viewed them as nothing more than private property.) Regardless of what sides were taken, I can see events like this resulting in the quarian's situation by the events of ME1.

[Deadspear]

Didn't Legion say something about the Geth making a super structure in ME2 and the in ME3 the quarians destoyed it, practically killing millions?



Also interesting to note:
"Legion suggests the closest conceptual analogue is a Dyson sphere and, as it poignantly states "no geth will be alone when it is done." It believes that Sovereign promised the heretics a Reaper body to serve as such a megastructure."

[Deadspear]

Also, I love this moment when Shep talks to EDI:

[King Feraligatr]

Feb 11, 2016 10:00:12 GMT -6 Parastrat0023 said:

Reading through what King Feraligatr said, I just realized that the mainline Geth would become a lot less sympathetic antagonists by extension since they're said to worship the Reapers and wish to follow in their footsteps. One of the main issues I had with how ME3 treated the Quarians was how Bioware decided to just flip the tables and make the Quarians seem like an overly paranoid, unsympathetic, I dare say even stupid and antagonistic race who just took it upon themselves to destroy the Geth out of mere suspicion that wasn't even justified. I can see these changes making the quarians seem more sympathetic in contrast, although I would have idealistically preferred a morally gray scenario where both sides had good points despite neither one of them being in the right (for example, the quarians taking pre-emptive action to discontinue the Geth brought about because one quarian actually discovered a small group of Geth planning a violent revolt because of some percentage of the quarian population enjoying sadistic torture and wanton destruction of Geth who viewed them as nothing more than private property.) Regardless of what sides were taken, I can see events like this resulting in the quarian's situation by the events of ME1.

I never intended the Mainliners to be overly sympathetic or gray. I intended them to have a point or several points, but not be really a gray. One point being is that organic races attacked them first (or so they say... I don't know yet, but Tali seems to suggest in her dialogue in ME1 that the Quarians attacked first.). Also, they notice that organic and synthetic life like to fight (there is no inherent synthetic vs. organic conflict in the Rewrite. I tell you this right now. I hate the cliche and it it does not exist. ME1's circumstances though left me in harder place to not have that seem like the case at the start.) and they have grievances (several legit) about how synthetic life has been treated by organic life. Plus, you have not seen my planned backstory on the Geth and Mainliners (I'll post it later). The Geth that supposed to be the gray are the neutral and rebel Geth factions, not the Mainliners. If you feel anything bad about the Mainliners, read the planned backstory.

Of course though, feel free to poke holes in what I say, criticize it, refute it, etc. I see potential plotholes in my ideas already. They need to be crushed as best as I can.

[Deadspear]

So in essence, the motivation of the reapers is to just cause chaos?

[King Feraligatr]

Feb 11, 2016 9:05:24 GMT -6 Deadspear said:

Those are good ideas, but here are just some questions: So non-cannon Legion's geth are the minority in the rewrite? The 10% that don't follow the Reapers?
The way you describe them you make the reapers sound like a bond villan, not the non-feeling Hal-9000 we came to expect. But that leads me to another point. What if, keep with me here, the reapers were just puppets controlled by some twisted race. Something along the lines of non-cannon Overlord DLC, where David was controlling the Geth. David seemed like a scary, sadistic monster, killing and rampaging. In the end David was just a scared brainwashed teenager strapped to a grotesque machine. What if the cannon-originators (dunno if their Leviaths in the rewrite or just some unknown race) tried to control machines like they Cerberus non-canonically tried, and once they did they got drunk with power, and annihilated their competition. It could even be spun that they took control of machines to end a war.

To the first question, yes, all Geth factions not included in the Mainliners are the minority. The Mainliners are for sure the vast majority of Geth (I assume anywhere from 75% - 90% of all Geth), The other 25%-10% of Geth are either in neutral or rebellious factions.

And about the Reapers sounding like cartoon villains.... to me they sort of seem that way to me. For all their power, intelligence, planning, gloating, longevity, success, etc. they fundamentally seem to be over the top evil and petty villains to me personally. You can even find (probably unintentional by BW) hints in ME1 to support this. No doubt they are almost if not completely possible for people like us to understand, but somewhere, it seems you have a bit of plain, old fashioned, mustache twirling villainy here. I know I made villainy their primary goal here, but at least it would fit in with the massive cold blooded murder we've seen from them. That, and I don't think I'm good at making or writing mysterious enemies beyond out comprehension. I'm blunt and more forthright in a lot of areas in real life, and I think I may be that way with my writing as well. Don't know.

And about the being controlled thing, I see many problems with that. With it, we run into many of the plotholes ME3's original terribad Bioware endings did. Like how this controller not notice that the cycle wasn't going as planned? Or if they where dormant, why did Sovereign not try to contact them (and if he didn't have the means to do so, that'd be retarded on the end of the controller). I don't like the controller the idea and I can only see it possibly working at all with a Harbinger-like Reaper. Still, it raises more questions than answers (and not good questions) and it's easier to say that all Reapers, old and new, are beyond hardwired to want to commit this genocidal struggle. Reaper origins may be explored later and it's obvious the Reapers did have a beginning unlike what Sovereign says. It's also obvious whoever or whatever made the Reapers is twisted beyond belief. Still, I don't really know if it's necessary to explore the Reaper's origins in the story. Hints could be dropped, but it might be best to never have the story ever really say.

Feel free to challenge my ideas, refute them, poke holes in them, etc. They need it.

[King Feraligatr]

Feb 11, 2016 20:19:43 GMT -6 Deadspear said:

So in essence, the motivation of the reapers is to just cause chaos?

I guess, based on what I said, that is one of their primary goals. Wouldn't be out of character for a sadist.

[Parastrat0023]

More of a remark than a suggestion, but this added level of almost nihilstic sadism against non-reaper life brought about by a collective sense of megalomania makes the term "Hunters" feel more appropriate for the Reapers than anything. And quite frankly I think the "mysteriousness" about the Bioware reapers was just a lazy excuse for them not having any clue as to what their real motivation should have been.

Also, the main reason I even pointed out the mainliner Geth being very unsympathetic (and for good reason most likely despite having a few good points that get taken horribly out of hand by them and others) is that I could easily imagine some characters being faced with a sort of Not So Different/ One Who Fights Monsters sort of personal conflict after fighting them for a while. 

[Deadspear]

I was thinking more that each reaper either had its own controller, or just one guy/girl/thing controlling the entire thing, like the borg queen in TNG, twisted beyond belief from what they once were.

Also on the subject of being super evil. I just had a bit of a stupid though that reapers would be like this if they were just out to do chaos.

[King Feraligatr]

I'm sorry that the Reapers are so black in this Rewrite (at least at the moment), but I find it makes sense despite being mundane. Also, it seems consistent with what we saw of Sovereign and the Reapers in ME1. I have a tendency to make irredeemable villains myself.

[Deadspear]

Sometimes a simple bad guy, good guy formula seems best, I mean, I'm getting sick of all the "moral gray" things going around movies and video games lately, like the Walking Dead or Expanded Galaxy Mod from Kinkojiro. Sometimes its good to have that, but lately it just seems everyone is just going for the morally gray to seem more intellectual. Sure it can be a good story, but when you repeat it for so many times, you get jaded. Having a simple kill them because they are evil narriative leave a lot more room for building other stuff. If we figure out that the bad guy is evil end of story and not a tortured emo soul (looking at you Kylo Ren) then its easier for everyone and the goal is clear. Darth Vader was never revealed to be a tortured emo soul until he was almost dead. (Pre-prequels) If we get the bad guy out of the way, so we don't have to focus much on him as a character, then we can write good stories for other more interesting characters like Liara, Tali, Garrus Brokarian or Wrex. I'd much rather see the Arch Angel arc, Shadow Broker arc, Haelstrom arc and the Tuchanka arc, then spacebrat color speak and say. Not saying Leviathan was bad, the mystery was good but the payoff was weak as hell. The Leviathans don't do squat. If they could down a reaper that easily, how were they defeated in the first place? (etc. etc. you get the point, its just a confused mess when you try to deal with the villans)

[Parastrat0023]

Agreed, not everyone and everything needs to be morally ambiguous. Variety also includes irredeemable, complete monsters who deserve to just die as well. Honestly one thing I like about the reapers and by extension the mainline Geth being so evil is that my main OC has all the more reason to be a superficially kind person with a vindictive personality and desire to "get even" with the faction responsible for killing people he cared about.

[Deadspear]

Exactly, because if you make the villan gray, then the protagonist has to be gray too. "Choosing the lesser of two evil" type deal.

[King Feraligatr]

Sovereign's theme really does my current Reapers justice it seems:

[Deadspear]

I kinda wish they added some Sovereign lines to either when you land on earth or in the dreams. Even one reaper talking would have been awesome. They don't even taunt Shepard. If this played during the ending, it would have been awesome. And at the end of the lines. Shepard could say "Not today!"

[King Feraligatr]

As I was thinking about ideas, I just had a stoke of inspiration. Remember how we assume the Reapers might just leave some synthetic life alive after they're done with their cycle? Well, why aren't they there in the next cycle? Yes, hardware failure (I'll touch on this later), fighting, lack of resources (will also be covered later), and other things could have claimed their existence. But what if that isn't the main case? What if the Reapers murder other synthetics just like they murder organics? They could just keep it low key or edit it out (this will also be touched on later). Think about it, the Reapers in the Rewrite are sadistic, god complex monsters that consider non Reaper life "inferior". This would also include other synthetics. Why wouldn't they want to murder them? It adds to their glee in murdering everything. And it just makes the Reapers more monstrous, something I'm aiming for with the Rewrite. Really liking that angle to them. Restores them to something resembling menacing.

I'm also led to believe the Reapers started the lie about "all synthetics will fight organics" and vice versa view the galaxy has. This isn't true ofc and there would have to be other ways for the lie to be started/spread. But the Reapers could have left hints or nudges that it was the "truth". That way, the Reapers would be further in control (something the Rewrite Reapers seem to have gained as an additional character trait: liking being in control) of their prey and of the galaxy and to further cause chaos amongst said prey. Makes for easier pickings. Of course, this could not be true of every cycle beforehand, but it'd be no doubt effective in the cycles it did work in. The current cycle seems to show the effectiveness of not having a fully united galaxy, esp. between organic and synthetic life. Worked out well for Sovereign when he got the Mainliners on his side. Imagine what a galaxy united or at least with good terms with the Geth could have done to Sovereign if he showed his face.

And to expand on this hardware failure idea (and lack of resources), I'd imagine a form of or torture one could do to synthetic life; esp. centralized, bluebox AI (like that one in the sidequest in the Citadel where said AI is stealing funds); would be stranding the synthetic in some remote area with no outside connections and no way to network to anything. It'd be abandoned there to fend for itself while its power and hardware slowly fails on it. It cannot move, being confined to only an immobile piece of hardware. It slowly loses its sanity (maybe) and once the power fails or a critical piece of hardware fails, bam! It's done, after a torturous final existence. It's horrible and might take longer than any organic failing. I'd imagine the Reapers and Mainliners might have done this in the past to synthetics for the fun of it.

As always, feel free to critique what I said, give me feedback, poke holes in it, etc. And sorry for my awkward writing.